Funding for To the Contrary provided by E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation Park Foundation and the Charles A. Frueauff Foundation This week.

on To the Contrary, ageism and sexism.

That's what many women in Congress say are the reasons behind the calls for Senator Dianne Feinstein to resign.

Others say it's all about judges.

Then why do women still do the bulk of the housework, even when they're the top earner in their household?

(MUSIC) Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbe Welcome to to the contrary, a discussion of news and social trends from diverse perspectives.

Joining us today are Debra Carnahan, former judge and federal prosecutor.

Political consultant Rina Shah Senior fellow at the Independent Women's Forum.

Carrie Sheffield And Keli Goff, political columnist for The Hollywood Reporter.

Up first, some female lawmakers from both parties see ageism and sexism as calls mount for Senator Dianne Feinstein of California to resign due to health issues.

Democratic members of Congress, such as Ro Khanna of California and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York, have said the 89 year old senator should step down.

They say her continued absence from work due to shingles has made it hard for Congress to confirm President Biden's judicial appointments.

Khanna recently said he does not maintain a double standard based on gender, but it's based on her missing over 75% of votes, not having a clear return date and having had years of issues fulfilling her duty.

Representative Norma Torres, Democrat from California, tweeted.

When women age or get sick, the men are quick to push them aside.

When men age or get sick, they get promotions.

So is this about sexism, ageism, or none of the above?

I think it may be a combination of all three.

I've been giving this a lot of thought and watching closely.

It is a reality about needing her vote in the Judiciary Committee.

It is a reality that President Biden's judicial appointments are backed up and haven't been going through.

That's not necessarily all her fault.

But I do think there's some ageism and sexism going on here.

I don't remember hearing calls like this for Strom Thurmond, You know, when they had to wheel him in to the Senate chambers and he could barely even speak.

And no one was saying Strom needs to resign.

I do want to because I covered the house anyway during that time and used to see Strom Thurmond around in his wheelchair being pushed by aides.

He didn't miss votes.

His aides told him what buttons to push.

At least he was able to get to the floor.

So I mean, I. I would agree with you completely up until finding out about that.

She is blocking the Democrats from making their judicial appointments.

And that is extremely important.

It really is.

The other thing I just want to say briefly, it's shingles, right?

It's something that's not permanent, not life threatening.

And she needs some time off to recover, just like any other senator would from a surgery or anything else.

So she's going to have to make that decision.

Obviously, no one else is going to be able to make it for her.

Yeah, I think it's really time for her to to do the right thing and go.

This is just far too long to be absent in in any sort of private workplace.

If you try to work from home for way too long, what does leadership do and say?

They say, well, that's not possible for you.

So to try to represent the people and not be in the chamber and miss this high percentage of votes, I think this is serious and I don't see the gender layer here.

I see it simply being about age and sure, call me ages for a moment, but I think it's a real big problem when the average retirement age in the United States is 64.

And here you've got a woman that's on the door of 90 and to me, that's just it's just not right.

It's not in keeping with the times.

But there's a balance here, Bonnie.

The real question is how do we not become a gerontocracy while still preserving and having a balance to keeping people who have real experience in these positions?

That's the real question here.

And I do hope she does the right thing and steps aside because it's it's not only a disservice to her party, it's a disservice to all Americans and to particularly to Californians.

Well, I have a lot of personal empathy because my mother has battled shingles and hers actually became something that was fairly chronic.

And I had no idea that it could be something so debilitating.

So my heart goes out to her.

I will say, however, though, again, I'll probably get in a lot of trouble for this and wanting to be empathetic and not sound ageist Here in New York, we actually do have age limits for retirement, mandatory required requirement ages for our state judges.

So at age 70 theyre forced to resign.

Now, that's actually just recently there's been a new law introduced to try to revisit that issue, because a lot of the jurists who are approaching the age of 70 don't like that.

But I have to tell you that a lot of the supporters of that law have actually been people who are older who say that, you know, look, the data is what the data is.

The only drivers more dangerous than teenagers are drivers who are senior citizens.

Why don't we have a mandatory age for retaking your driver's test?

It's because the most reliable voters are senior citizens.

So the conversation we're now being forced to have about her as an elected official is one we're having at sort of every level in this country.

It is a terrifying thought to know that there were Supreme Court justices who were so old they couldn't find their own name, but their clerks were actually maneuvering to keep them on the court because there's no mandatory retirement age.

So I think if you can have a for state judges in New York, we should be having a conversation about having mandatory retirement ages at the judiciary level, on the federal level, and also when it comes to elected officials.

And I think she's going to push that conversation for this debate.

Well, why would you want an age level as opposed to an ability level, For example, Strom Thurmond didn't miss votes or didn't miss many of them.

His aides just took up you know, he took his stance.

They knew where he was going to come out on things and consulted with other Republican Party higher ups at the time.

And so there was no impact on the Republican Party.

And its power at the time, whereas here with Feinstein, she may not be as old as he was, but she's she's not able to fulfill her position.

Isn't that a difference?

We already have a mandatory age requirement to run for president.

You have to be 35.

And yet no one says that that's ageist, even though young people are actually one of the fastest growing demographics.

Right.

No one calls that ageist.

So why can't we have this conversation then about having, you know, on the other end of the spectrum?

The other thing I would say, too, is voters didn't elect Strom Thurmond's aides.

They elected Strom Thurmond.

And so I think there should be a conversation about if the person who has actually been elected by Republican voters, Democratic voters, voters in a general election can't do their job.

We should be talking about that because, like I said, it was really terrifying to know that a lot of the people making the sweeping decisions from our federal judiciary were not the judges themselves.

You do age out when you're a federal judge.

And at age 70, I believe there's a reason why we don't want our representatives or our senators to leave, even as they may need more help from their aides, because everything in Congress is about seniority.

The party in power and seniority.

And so, you know, it's a lot when you lose somebody that's been there for years and has worked their way up in seniority.

Carrie, let's get you in here.

What do you think?

Obviously, you're not a supporter of her politics, but if she were a member of your party, what would you be telling what would you say to the higher ups about whether she should continue or not?

You know, she kind of reminds me of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who refused to retire and then she passed away with Donald Trump as the president, whereas if she had retired under a Democrat, then the progressives could have a progressive on their seat.

I think that was a strategic failure on the progressives part to not successfully urge her to step down.

But I mean, I'm happy with that outcome.

It seems a little bit sketchy to me as I was looking at the website for the CDC about shingles, and I am just full disclosure, I had my first case of shingles.

I hope I never have it again last year.

It doesn't really happen to younger people very often, but I was tested positive for the virus and it was painful, but it only lasted about three weeks for me.

And the CDC says that it typically lasts only about four weeks and we're coming on eight weeks for her.

So that to me suggests that her body is not at the level of immunity where she can function unless she can come back, I think fairly soon.

I would be asking a lot of questions.

But again, you know, I'm fine as long as these judges don't get approved.

As far as me being a conservative, I say, and keep going on your vacation.

I mean, to me, it doesn't make sense strategically.

If I was a progressive, too, and I and I don't think that's sexist, I don't think it's ages.

I just think it's it really is about the judiciary.

And can I just say to Bernie, for the last 13 years of my life, I worked on a piece of legislation that Senator Feinstein and Senator Collins were coauthors of in the Senate.

I had great experience with her staff, with her office, even speaking with the senator a few times about it.

So, yes, you do rely on your aides, but as long as your aides are still helping you, you know, I think that's a big thing to say.

It's not all about the votes.

So the other thing I would like to say is this is a slippery slope.

Let's use the example of Steve Scalise when he got shot in Alexandria, -which was a horrific -Republican house member Absolutely.

But I don't know that I heard anybody out there and I don't know how long Steve was out, but I mean, he was hurt pretty badly.

So were there cries for him to resign because he was shot practicing baseball with the Republican colleagues for the baseball game.

So, you know, it's a slippery slope when you start saying, well, she's been gone enough.

Allow me to jump in here.

Somebody who covered the Supreme Court for more than a decade, he doesn't vote.

The House members don't vote on on nominees to the judiciary at any level, district court, circuit court or the Supreme Court.

I mean, why not just have capability if you miss X, if you caused the Senate not to take up X numbers of of appointments by a sitting president, goodbye.

Why not something like that?

I mean, it shouldn't be a blanket, anything.

There are very few of them, but there are 90 year olds who run marathons.

Yeah, Bonnie, I think this is a really important point.

It's about cognition too.

I'm a really big believer in age is just a number.

I love having friends across the generations and I never feel like, Oh, I'm younger than somebody or I'm older than somebody.

It's all about how we feel.

But these are people that receive our taxpayer dollars.

And Feinstein has this incredible legacy of what she's done as a younger woman in an elected position.

I just think she should reflect on that and think to herself, what am I doing now?

Am I in touch with what the constituency wants?

There was a viral video of Sunrise Movement members, a young climate activist going and talking to her about what they cared about, and she just couldn't care less.

And now, look, it's really important to keep these people in check, the people that receive our money to do a job.

And that's to be our voice in Washington on the biggest issues.

And if we have driver's license test, I'm somebody who believes that we need driver's license renewal test more frequently in the state.

I really think it's time to get more serious, to not just have the conversation, but to push for change.

Because Gen Z was a big part of how Joe Biden Biden got into the White House and the Dems need to be talking to themselves and saying, What are we doing here?

Are we reflecting the values of our caucus?

To me, this doesn't have to be so partisan.

It's literally about reflecting the values of the people you represent and the party you're saying you're a part of.

Yeah, I agree.

I agree with what Rina said as far as Joe Biden, I think Joe Biden honestly has been pushed so far left.

You look at the statements he made as a younger man versus what he says today.

I don't believe it's actually what Joe Biden believes, like on abortion, for example, younger Joe Biden said that abortion is a tragedy.

He said, I don't believe it's a right.

And now you have him believing in abortion upon on demand almost birth.

You have him saying things on welfare that people should work.

And now he's saying you don't have to work for welfare.

You see him see him earlier being, you know, wanting to prevent crime, and now he's supporting people, defunding the police.

So I think it's very interesting.

Unfortunately, I as someone who's conservative, I would have loved to see Joe Biden and I believe he was elected because people wanted to see a more moderate version of governance in the White House and instead, what they're getting is this Trojan horse where he's being pushed around by his younger aides.

But what about but wait a minute, Kerry.

I mean, politicians change their views over time.

Political parties shift.

I mean, the Republicans were the anti-slavery in the 1860s.

So and now and the Democrats were pro-slavery.

So I just what you're saying, I mean, people do change over decades.

They change their opinions.

It doesn't mean they're lying when they get older.

Well, first of all, to clarify, Republicans still believe that slavery is evil, but.

That hasn't changed.

I thank you for clarifying that.

I was going to say, though, Gary, I think you made a really compelling case that Joe Biden's cognitive ability is better than some people think it is.

Because because I feel like we went from a conversation about cognition to political expediency.

And so I think there is an interesting conversation about which changes were made to Bonnie's point, because it's politically expedient, which I think is unfortunate.

But that's a different conversation with someone not being, you know, still with it.

I think that's the formal the formal medical term.

This is an astounding fact.

According to the Los Angeles Times, Dianne Feinstein, net worth is 58.5 million.

And I just think that's so problematic.

And frankly, just dirty to me.

Public servants shouldn't be getting rich off of being in public service this long.

And yet we see it we see it across the aisle.

Now, of course, you know, much can be said about insider trading, and that's a whole nother conversation about what members of Congress should be doing beyond the STOCK Act.

Right.

And what they should be limited.

But 58.5 million, I just I'm ready for public servants to go back to being the entrepreneurial types, get in, solve a problem and get out.

It's just far too long to be in office and get that wealthy after being in office that long.

All right.

Here we go.

From women in Congress to women at home sharing chores.

The share of married couples in which the man is not the sole or primary breadwinner has fallen dramatically since the 1970s.

But women are still more likely to be in charge of cooking, cleaning and caregiving.

That's according to data from Pew, which has been tracking this for decades.

Just more than a half of heterosexual marriages today have the man as a sole or primary breadwinner.

About a third are egalitarian and only about a sixth have the woman as the sole or primary breadwinner.

In almost all scenarios, including when the woman was the primary breadwinner, women reported spending more time on caregiving and housework than men.

Rina, It's been decades now that second wave feminism took up this issue.

I mean, I remember Betty Friedan, who was at the height of her power in the seventies eighties, talking about raising a son to do half the cleaning, half the childcare.

Is this still an issue because there are women out there who would rather be at home taking care of children while the men make the money?

I'm all about women doing whatever the heck they want to do in the year 2023.

If you want to be a stay at home mom and or just be a stay at home spouse, knock yourself out.

Figure it out for yourself.

Make it happen.

Because that to me is real.

Feminism is to support women in their choices.

I've met a lot of stay at home moms who not only just raise a family, but they're homeschooling as well.

Some of these women are.

My inspiration as a working woman is somebody that needed to go back to work after having my first child, my second child, and now after having my third child exactly a year ago.

I am back in the workforce this time, part time.

And it has been a real challenge.

But I think that's what a modern marriage is, is to figure it out for yourself.

No, marriage is perfect.

I think should the share of household labor and duties still may be skewed, it may seem like a lot of it falls more on women than on men.

And there are studies that give us the empirical evidence telling us so.

So, yes, in the year 2023, we do find the American women doing more of that household labor.

But what I'm trying to say more than anything else is that it's not terrible news, because I think more than anything else today, American women are empowered.

Debra your thoughts on whether some, at least even possibly a majority of women prefer being the homemaker and it's never going to be completely equal?

May not be ever completely equal, but certainly it does cause an issue and raises eyebrows.

As you said, Bonnie, we're still here after all these decades.

And what really is a little disconcerting is when the woman is making as much, if not more than the man, but still picking up more of the domestic work that's not paid and has less free time.

Let me just jump in and pose this situation.

I've heard so many women say, oh, my husband won't do anything.

I can't force him to do it.

Well, why did you marry him?

Why did you marry a guy?

If you want someone who will help you with the housework, why did you marry somebody who wont?

Yeah, that was going to be my next point, which was.

A lot of this needs to be worked out between a woman and a man or whoever.

You need to work it out beforehand.

But in this case, we were talking about women and men, and I think there still is a lot of socialization and expectations that the woman is still ultimately responsible for the house and the children.

I mean, it used to bother me so much when people would walk in my house and anything about my house or comments would be directed to me, or if it looked good or this looks great, you know, it's all to me, not to my husband.

And many times in our marriage over the years, I have made more money than he has made.

And so there is a socialization, I think, that goes on with women telling us you're responsible.

And then there's also what you said.

You need to talk about it and we need to tell women to talk about it.

Well, do you think women have gotten that message, Rina?

I think millennial women like me.

Elder Millennial, I must add, have gotten the message that you can be.

Vocal.

And he may leave or she may leave.

I don't know.

There are great, you know, same sex marriages as well that are figuring it out because it's it's a unique issue.

I mean, this is a modern issue.

It's thoroughly modern.

I have three young girls and I was considering buying a play kitchen for them just the other day.

And I'm like, what am I doing?

I grew up without a kitchen.

Why am I trying to do this thing for my daughter?

So, look, it's not a perfect conversation.

It is, to me, uniquely individual, it is private.

And more than anything, I'm just trying to say, if you're a woman that is of higher socioeconomic status, you get to have these conversations.

Who I'm really worried about are these lower socioeconomic women.

You know, sorry, lower status.

When we talk about the economics, the working women, the women that are working these these jobs, that they don't have control even over their bodies, that is what we need to be steering the conversation differently for, especially when it comes to public policy making.

We can't get it all right through the government.

But I think as a society, I want there to be a consciousness about how we lift up people out of poverty and help those women be empowered, especially new Americans, immigrants as well.

That's really important.

You know, I was going to say it's interesting because I got in quite a bit of trouble a few years ago when I wrote about this issue.

I actually got in a bit of trouble from the left when I made the case that there's a problem when policy wise, progressive feminists would rather call out the government, call out their employers for making their lives less equitable than to call out their partners or boyfriends and their husbands at home for making their lives less equitable.

And I made the case that we're never going to get true equality in society, but we have it with our partners at home helping us with these things.

And then here's the Pew data to back it up.

If we take a step back and look at sort of the bigger conversation about gender in the country and kind of the the because, you know, feminism was supposed to be about equality between the sexes.

And I think in some respects, especially for the lower income men that we see with that, as Rina mentioned, a lot of lower skilled, lower educated men are actually not participating at all.

They're actually totally opting out.

The crime rate, the prison rate, the education rate for graduating high school, for working class versus male versus female, It's much higher for women.

Women are generally getting more education, so that makes them more skillable or hirable in an information economy as opposed to a working class where your body was physically exhausted.

And and in some respects, I think that makes a lot of men feel less.

And again, we need as a society to speak about how do we value people, you know, their contribution.

Is it about your paycheck or is it about being a present father?

Is it about being in the home?

And unfortunately, I think materialism and social media and always trying to put up a fake facade of how much money you're making or whatever it can make.

A lot of men feel like, you know what, I'm just not even going to opt into that that rat race or I'm going to turn to something illegal.

The anxiety and social alienation of men and boys is far more pronounced than it is among young girls, I would argue, because in part because of the way our society has socialized and said that if you don't go for the college four year degree, then you're basically worthless and we don't care about you because you need to go to college for all.

And a lot of working class men don't fit that model.

And I think it's I think that's that's part of why they're less motivated.

That's what I think is getting lost in this conversation is the idea of what an equal partner looks like.

Look, I grew up in a fairly traditional home.

My parents were married for nearly 50 years before my father passed away.

They both worked outside the home, but at the end of the day, when it came to parenting, you know, my father was basically told by my mom when to show up for my really bad ballet recitals and my not so good school plays.

But other than that, in terms of the really hands on the cleaning and the cooking and the housework, that was what she oversaw.

And I think what Carrie is speaking to is now that women like myself are in a position where we have our own financial stability, and if we're choosing not to have children, it's I think a lot of these men are in a tough position because why would someone partner up with someone that is not perceived as an equal partner?

And as my mom pointed out to me, Bonnie, look, there was a time when she couldn't get a credit card without my dad.

I don't live in that world.

And so if I chose not to have children, then it's making the case.

What's the benefit of marriage for someone like me, and particularly for educated black women?

Carrie is speaking about the data, right?

If our partners are not bringing the same thing to the table, particularly if we're not having kids, marriage is a lot different than what my mother was looking for when she married my father.

And that's the conversation I think we all need to be willing to have.

And I think feminists are going to have to be willing to have some real talk about that, as are conservatives.

In terms of what does the modern family look like in the future?

Do we know.

If it's any different in same sex couples?

Well, yeah.

I mean, what we have so far gathered, it seems more egalitarian and and they seem to split the housework more evenly.

So, yeah, there's definitely a different dynamic there.

The data also shows, Debra that the children of same sex couples are less influenced by the concept of traditional gender roles when it comes to how you divide housework than kids of of traditional opposite sex couples.

You know, there's an old saying you learn by example.

So that would certainly support that.

All right.

Well, that's it for this edition.

Whether you agree or think to the contrary.

Please join us next time.

(MUSIC) Funding for.

To the contrary provided by the E Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation.

The Park Foundation.

And the Charles.

A Frueauff Foundation